Tier Scaling

Currently, this is how our scaling is for bonus dice on weapons:

• Base Level: Courage +4 dice
  
• Level 10: Courage +6 dice
  
• Level 20: Courage +8 dice
  
• Level 30: Courage +11 dice
  
• Level 40: Courage +14 dice
  
• Level 50: Courage +18 dice
  

It's a rather gradual scaling, however... it doesn't actually make much sense.


Let's take a Level 5 character. Including starting stats, he should have a total of 35 stats across the board, and his Courage stat, assuming roughly average stats, is going to be about 7. Adding 4 Dice to this on attack gives a 57% increase in attack. If we run glass cannon (aka, 40%+ of stat points into one stat), then his Courage stat will be about 14. With +4 Dice on this attack, that's a 28% increase.

Now let's run the numbers going up every 10 levels from there, given average stats and glass cannon stats:

• Level 5
  • 35 Stat Points
    
  • +4 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 7 + 4 Courage = 11 Courage, 57% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 14 + 4 Courage = 18 Courage, 28% increase
    
• Level 15
  • 85 Stat Points
    
  • +6 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 17 + 6 Courage = 23 Courage, 35% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 34 + 6 Courage = 40 Courage, 17% increase
    
• Level 25
  • 135 Stat Points
    
  • +8 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 27 + 8 Courage = 35 Courage, 30% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 54 + 8 Courage = 62 Courage, 15% increase
    
• Level 35
  • 185 Stat Points
    
  • +11 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 37 + 11 Courage = 48 Courage, 30% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 74 + 11 Courage = 85 Courage, 15% increase
    
• Level 45
  • 235 Stat Points
    
  • +14 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 47 + 14 Courage = 61 Courage, 30% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 94 + 14 Courage = 108 Courage, 15% increase
    
• Level 50
  • 260 Stat Points
    
  • +18 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 52 + 18 Courage = 70 Courage, 35% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 104 + 18 Courage = 122 Courage, 17% increase
    

Here's the problem with this. Naturally, when you jump up each tier, there should be a static amount it increases by. In order for each tier to actually feel more powerful, the percentage scale should also go up. Right now, the static amount it increases by is lower than the base amount, and it decreases or remains the same in percentage scale. Where it starts as a massive boost to your attack, it ends as a decent bonus, but not really impactful. Or heck, just a minor bonus, depending on your stats.

---

Let's try this again. Base amount of +4, base scaling of 50/25% , and scaling up by 4/2% per tier. Keep in mind I'm rounding to the nearest number, so even though the base scaling says it starts at 57%, it's actually 50%.

• Level 5
  • 35 Stat Points
    
  • +4 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 7 + 4 Courage = 11 Courage, 57% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 14 + 4 Courage = 18 Courage, 28% increase
    
• Level 15
  • 85 Stat Points
    
  • +9 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 17 + 9 Courage = 26 Courage, 53% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 34 + 9 Courage = 43 Courage, 27% increase
    
• Level 25
  • 135 Stat Points
    
  • +16 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 27 + 16 Courage = 43 Courage, 59% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 54 + 16 Courage = 70 Courage, 30% increase
    
• Level 35
  • 185 Stat Points
    
  • +23 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 37 + 23 Courage = 60 Courage, 62% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 74 + 23 Courage = 97 Courage, 31% increase
    
• Level 45
  • 235 Stat Points
    
  • +31 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 47 + 31 Courage = 78 Courage, 66% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 94 + 31 Courage = 125 Courage, 33% increase
    
• Level 50
  • (This one is scaled up a bit more, since it's only a 5 level jump, but still a tier increase)
    
  • 260 Stat Points
    
  • +40 Dice on attack
    
  • Average Stats: 52 + 40 Courage = 92 Courage, 77% increase
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 104 + 40 Courage = 144 Courage, 39% increase
    

This results in our new tier level scaling:

• Base Level: Courage +4 dice
  
• Level 10: Courage +9 dice
  
• Level 20: Courage +16 dice
  
• Level 30: Courage +23 dice
  
• Level 40: Courage +31 dice
  
• Level 50: Courage +40 dice
  

In the end, we're a much higher up than before, and if a 144 Courage attack sounds like a lot, well, if your opponent has two +30 dice shields and +20 armor... that may not be as much after all.


Thoughts?

I am going to say "No" to the new balancing scale. Why? It has the potential, moreso than our current system, to turn the game into a grindfest where you have to grind the Rupees and Experience to be able to obtain each new tier of equipment in order to effectively fight on that their. While this is apparent on some degree in our current system, I doubt that any players have run into a situation where they had to grind to obtain new tiers of equipment in order to fight properly at their respective tiers. With this balancing method in place, such a situation is considerably more likely to happen and I felt this was on the verge of happening when Kappa and Harvey were at base tier level.

Alternatively, I propose a different balancing system. As you said, there is a significant inbalance between scaling in regards to lower levels and higher levels. Instead of scaling everything up from the low tiers, I propose scaling from the higher tiers down, with each equipment giving ~30% base increase per tier (with Level 40 and 50 being slightly higher) as opposed to the ~50% base increase you are suggesting.

• Base Level: Courage +2
  
• Level 10: Courage +5
  
• Level 20: Courage +8
  
• Level 30: Courage +12
  
• Level 40: Courage +16
  
• Level 50: Courage +20

Player statistics with this balancing scheme

• Level 5
  • 35 Stat Points
    
  • +2 dice on attack.
    
  • Average Stats: 7 + 2 = 9 Courage, 28.57% increase.
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 12 + 2 = 14 Courage, 16.67% increase.
• Level 15
  • 85 Stat Points
    
  • +5 dice on attack.
    
  • Average Stats: 17 + 5 = 22 Courage, 29.41% increase.
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 32 + 5 = 37 Courage, 15.62% increase.
• Level 25
  • 135 Stat Points
    
  • +8 dice on attack.
    
  • Average Stats: 27 + 8 = 35 Courage, 29.62% increase.
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 52 + 8 = 60 Courage, 15.39% increase.
• Level 35
  • 185 Stat Points
    
  • +12 dice on attack.
    
  • Average Stats: 37 + 12 = 49 Courage, 32.43% increase.
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 72 + 12 = 84 Courage, 16.67% increase.
• Level 45
  • 235 Stat Points
    
  • +16 dice on attack.
    
  • Average Stats: 47 + 16 = 63 Courage, 34.04% increase.
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 92 + 16 = 108 Courage, 17.39% increase.
• Level 50
  • 260 Stat Points
    
  • +20 dice on attack.
    
  • Average Stats: 52 + 20 = 72 Courage, 38.46% increase.
    
  • Glass Cannon Stats: 102 + 20 = 122 Courage, 19.60% increase.

How does simply adjusting the scaling turn the game into a grindfest, especially when the only way it can be run is by a human counterpart? What's happening right now is people are using tiers of items that are two or three lower than the current level and winning by a longshot, because the game is currently very stat-based. There's some influence of items, but if you add all the bonuses together, you're getting maybe a 20 to 40% bonus from items, which doesn't help out enough against the stat counters. Now that everyone can see everyone's weak stats, it's currently a matter of shooting said weak stats and winning. Items are supposed to customize your character. What's the point of jumping tiers if it doesn't make a difference? I decided to do another stats test:


What's the percentage of Dice Bonus / Total Stat Points?


Running by your system, it looks like:

• Base Level: Courage +2 / 35 = 5.7%
  
• Level 10: Courage +5 / 85 = 5.9%
  
• Level 20: Courage +8 / 135 = 5.9%
  
• Level 30: Courage +12 / 185 = 6.5%
  
• Level 40: Courage +16 / 235 = 6.8%
  
• Level 50: Courage +20 / 260 = 7.7%
  

So, for every item you get that gives you a benefit, you're getting about a 5-6% impact overall strength in the early game and a 7-8% impact in the late game. Aka, something that makes a barely noticeable difference. You add up every item you can equip at once and your passives, and maybe you get up to 40% in the early game and 50% in the late game. That might influence some degree of stat counters, but it won't change the strategy of the game, which is currently "Hey, here's the weak stats on these enemies. Who on our team has the best stat counters for each one?"


Now, let's take my suggestion:

• Base Level: Courage +4 dice / 35 = 11.4%
  
• Level 10: Courage +9 dice / 85 = 10.6%
  
• Level 20: Courage +16 dice / 135 = 11.8%
  
• Level 30: Courage +23 dice / 185 = 12.4%
  
• Level 40: Courage +31 dice / 235 = 13.2%
  
• Level 50: Courage +40 dice / 260 = 15.4%
  

In the end, your overall strength is increased by up to 80% in the early game and about 100% in the late game. THAT will definitely change the strategy up, and perhaps warrant different choices in overall combat, because only half the strength is in the stats. This also makes customization a much greater and more important factor, which is something ZURPG tries to stress, given its large degree of freedom with character creation. Right now, the part of the game that feels best to me is the Levels 1 to 10 section, because that strategy of "target weak stats only" doesn't necessarily work. I've actually been able to be creative with enemies and bosses and make it so the players really have to think in order to beat him. I'd like that to be the case the whole game, not just the early game stretch.

Okay, let's try using the actual Level 10, 20, 30 etc. stats, starting with the increases. I used 5, 15, 25 earlier to see the averages, and so the base level was capable of being compared. Let's try the current scale, then Orithan's scale, then my suggested uber scale. FYI, I'm skipping Base Level, cause Level 1 don't do jack crap with starting gear and 100 Rupees.


Current one:

• Level 10: Courage +6 dice / 60 = 10%
  
• Level 20: Courage +8 dice / 110 = 7.2%
  
• Level 30: Courage +11 dice / 160 = 6.9%
  
• Level 40: Courage +14 dice / 210 = 6.7%
  
• Level 50: Courage +18 dice / 260 = 6.9%
  

Yep, I think we can agree there's an issue with that.


Onto Orithan's!

• Level 10: Courage +5 / 60 = 8.3%
  
• Level 20: Courage +8 / 110 = 7.2%
  
• Level 30: Courage +12 / 160 = 7.5%
  
• Level 40: Courage +16 / 210 = 7.6%
  
• Level 50: Courage +20 / 260 = 7.7%
  

Level 10 is higher than the rest?


And here's mine.

• Level 10: Courage +9 dice / 60 = 15%
  
• Level 20: Courage +16 dice / 110 = 14.5%
  
• Level 30: Courage +23 dice / 160 = 14.4%
  
• Level 40: Courage +31 dice / 210 = 14.7%
  
• Level 50: Courage +40 dice / 260 = 15.4%
  

Level 10 is still somehow somewhat higher than the rest, up till the end.


We probably still have some number adjusting and crunches to do, but we're getting there.

---

EDIT: Here's what the high ends look like! Added Base Level back, cause now we're counting in multiples of 9. Except 50. 50 is for pros. All of these should be noticeably lower.

Current one:

• Base Level (9): Courage +4 dice / 55 = 7.3%
  
• Level 10 (19): Courage +6 dice / 105 = 5.7%
  
• Level 20 (29): Courage +8 dice / 155 = 5.2%
  
• Level 30 (39): Courage +11 dice / 205 = 5.4%
  
• Level 40 (49): Courage +14 dice / 255 = 5.5%
  
• Level 50 (Pro): Courage +18 dice / 260 = 6.9%
  

Yep, still pretty crappy.


Orithan's!

• Base Level (9): Courage +2 dice / 55 = 3.6%
  
• Level 10 (19): Courage +5 dice / 105 = 4.8%
  
• Level 20 (29): Courage +8 dice / 155 = 5.2%
  
• Level 30 (39): Courage +12 dice / 205 = 5.9%
  
• Level 40 (49): Courage +16 dice / 255 = 6.3%
  
• Level 50 (Pro): Courage +20 / 260 = 7.7%
  

Holy crap, it actually increases! Pretty minimal difference when ya hit the end of the tier though. Might as well jump up ASAP.


Uber meinch:

• Base Level (9): Courage +4 dice / 55 = 7.3%
  
• Level 10 (19): Courage +9 dice / 105 = 8.6%
  
• Level 20 (29): Courage +16 dice / 155 = 10.3%
  
• Level 30 (39): Courage +23 dice / 205 = 11.2%
  
• Level 40 (49): Courage +31 dice / 255 = 12.2%
  
• Level 50 (Pro): Courage +40 dice / 260 = 15.4%
  

---

Whelp, it's up to preference. Would you rather your stats are the main source of power and items don't really mean that much, or would you rather there's an equal opportunity to customize using both stats and items in order to create the ultimate combination of your choice?

I've put up a poll, asking which scaling we should use. Also, I'm using spell tier names. Below is a list of the following options:

1. Current Scaling:
   • Base Level (1): Courage +4 dice
     
   • Alpha (10): Courage +6 dice
     
   • Beta (20): Courage +8 dice
     
   • Gamma (30): Courage +11 dice
     
   • Delta (40): Courage +14 dice
     
   • Omega (50): Courage +18 dice
     
2. Uber Scaling:
   • Base Level (1): Courage +4 dice
     
   • Alpha (10): Courage +9 dice
     
   • Beta (20): Courage +16 dice
     
   • Gamma (30): Courage +23 dice
     
   • Delta (40): Courage +31 dice
     
   • Omega (50): Courage +40 dice
     
3. Orithan's Scaling:
   • Base Level (1): Courage +2 dice
     
   • Alpha (10): Courage +5 dice
     
   • Beta (20): Courage +8 dice
     
   • Gamma (30): Courage +12 dice
     
   • Delta (40): Courage +16 dice
     
   • Omega (50): Courage +20 dice
     
4. Other Scaling:
   • Don't like those? Suggest your own!
     
     
     Code

     Code:Select All

     [b]Scales![/b]:[list]
[*][b]Base Level (1)[/b]: [Courage] +# dice
[*][b]Alpha (10)[/b]: [Courage] +# dice
[*][b]Beta (20)[/b]: [Courage] +# dice
[*][b]Gamma (30)[/b]: [Courage] +# dice
[*][b]Delta (40)[/b]: [Courage] +# dice
[*][b]Omega (50)[/b]: [Courage] +# dice
[/list]

After a little bit of discussion yesterday, I agree with the Uber scaling because it does place more importance in equipment and the old system made higher tier weapons almost useless if they didn't have all their flashy effects.

So it seems people like this scaling much better. We're using this one now. Ignore the poll.

---

Okay, after trying to apply the Uber Scaling system, especially after going through Support Spells with it... that may be too much. Plus we're trying to simplify things, and trying to memorize the new numbers and relative balance is kinda difficult, especially trying to calculate relative balance at each level. That said, here's my new suggestion...

Weapon Bonus Dice Scale

• Base Level (1): Courage +5 dice
  
• Alpha (10): Courage +10 dice
  
• Beta (20): Courage +15 dice
  
• Gamma (30): Courage +20 dice
  
• Delta (40): Courage +25 dice
  
• Omega (50): Courage +30 dice
  

And instead of applying point values on the relative balance, here's the scales for all of them as well:

Attack Dice, Defense Dice, and Stats Scale

• Base Level (1): +4 dice/stats
  
• Alpha (10): +8 dice/stats
  
• Beta (20): +12 dice/stats
  
• Gamma (30): +16 dice/stats
  
• Delta (40): +20 dice/stats
  
• Omega (50): +24 dice/stats
  

Damage and Armor Scale

• Base Level (1): +3 damage/armor
  
• Alpha (10): +6 damage/armor
  
• Beta (20): +9 damage/armor
  
• Gamma (30): +12 damage/armor
  
• Delta (40): +15 damage/armor
  
• Omega (50): +18 damage/armor
  

Successes Scale

• Base Level (1): +2/3 successes
  
• Alpha (10): +5 successes
  
• Beta (20): +7/8 successes
  
• Gamma (30): +10 successes
  
• Delta (40): +12/13 successes
  
• Omega (50): +15 successes
  

Individual Physical and Magical Armor Scale

• Base Level (1): +6 physical or magical armor
  
• Alpha (10): +12 physical or magical armor
  
• Beta (20): +18 physical or magical armor
  
• Gamma (30): +24 physical or magical armor
  
• Delta (40): +30 physical or magical armor
  
• Omega (50): +36 physical or magical armor
  

It's somewhere in-between the two scales listed here.


Something else to note is that naturally, as you level you gain access to more options and potentially new passives granted by items, so you're still getting the sense of feeling more powerful as you level.