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Currency for everyone! - Printable Version +- Zelda Universe RPG (https://zurpg.sephiroth.ws) +-- Forum: ZURPG General (https://zurpg.sephiroth.ws/forum-18.html) +--- Forum: Feedback & Suggestions (https://zurpg.sephiroth.ws/forum-10.html) +--- Thread: Currency for everyone! (/thread-528.html) |
Currency for everyone! - WindStrike - 05-05-2014 Since there may potentially be a redesign on how profiles are set up, specifically with the stats portion, I figure I may as well get something out of the way... Do we want to use one currency (Rupees) or multiple currencies (what we currently have + potentially more)? Personally, I'm for simplicity and less convoluted things, so my vote is on one currency. Yes, this means for Subrosia, you'd just use Rupees instead of Ore Chunks. I'll let others post up reasons for one option or the other. RE: Currency for everyone! - Darte Fellshard - 05-05-2014 One Currency Summary of my point of view from an IRC discussion:
RE: Currency for everyone! - Forgotten Third Eye - 05-05-2014 As much as I like simplicity and all, I am leaning more towards multiple currencies. Before I make my claim, let's take a look at the definition of "currency". I will be using the dictionary [dot] com definition for this, but there are other places that either use the same, or similar, definition. Dictionary.com Definition #1 Wrote:something that is used as a medium of exchange; money. This one makes sense. The United States uses American dollars and some coins, Canada has Canadian dollars, Japan has yen. BUT there is a word in there that indicates something else. The "medium of exchange" part is what I am talking about. Now, "money", in a sense, is used as something in exchange for something else, but what if you had something else? Say, if you have a cow and wanted three pieces of bread (this is a made up example), you probably would trade your cow for those three pieces of bread. Or you could trade in rocks for some clothes that you want to wear. Heck, you could even trade in dirt for some saplings or something. What I am getting at is that "money" isn't really used just for trading, you could trade a game for a game. Just as long as something is acceptable, you can get something you want (or need). Dictionary.com Definition #2 Wrote:general acceptance; prevalence; vogue.The above quote is basically just there to support the fact that as long as something is "generally accepted", you can use it to trade. Though, it really depends on the person. Now, the next claim is probably going to burn your mind. Dictionary.com Definition #3 Wrote:a time or period during which something is widely accepted and circulated. Well well, what do we have here? You guessed it, something about time. An example would be that you probably wouldn't want to use dollars in the Stone Age time simply because a) they don't exist, b) it doesn't make sense, c) it probably might be used for something stupid. Likewise, you probably wouldn't use something like stones or rocks in the modern world because a) it's silly, b) it don't really have any "value", c) it is not really a widely acceptable thing to use as currency, and d) you probably might look like an idiot for trying to trade a rock for something like a video game. Something that is used as currency not only has to make sense within the time period of the area, but it also has to be widely acceptable. You probably wouldn't use Ore Chunks as a currency in Reisanoqun, mainly because it isn't widely acceptable and it doesn't really make sense to the futuristic setting. Same with the coins in Hyrule, the people would have no idea what it is used for and if it is even worth using. Now that the definition part is out of the way, let's go to some downsides with one currency, shall we? As simple and easy as it is to just have one currency, what if you have a shop specifically for "rare" items? Or even a shop with "special" items at a ridiculously high price? Let's say that you want a cool item that you want from a shop, but it costs something like a billion Rupees. One, it is going to be tedious AND annoying at the same time. Nobody is going out there to get THAT many Rupees, let alone anyone actually getting that much in one year. Unless if you have something like daily quests or have a bunch of people pool in Rupees for one helpful item, it is highly improbable for one to get that many Rupees. Not only that, but the system would REALLY break because someone with that many Rupees could probably get everything they wanted that doesn't cost like ten thousand each or something. Hell, you could get a bunch of bottles and fill them up with a bunch of potions or fairies. I highly doubt a DM would even let the players get that much Rupees in one quest because someone out there may be greedy and save all the rupees or use them to buy other stuff that are at a lower price. You see, when I first came up with Reisano Coins, they were originally going to be like Frog Coins from SMRPG, generally rare coins that can be used for buying rare or special things not normally found elsewhere. Heck, Reisano Coins weren't even called Reisano Coins, they were called Frog Coins. On that note, Reisanoqun wasn't even going to be a country (or continent) alone, it just didn't exist back when I thought of these coins. The only thing that existed back before Reisanoqun came to be were Frog Coins and a shop for buying special or rare items using Frog Coins and only Frog Coins. Currency has to have a purpose, simply put, if it's only purpose is to be used as something to buy something else, then it is pretty much junk. Rupees are used as weapons and as something to buy items with. I don't recall if we actually had any other uses for Rupees except for those two reasons. Not to mention that there is a lack of any actual minigame that Rupees have a role in or can be used to spend (seriously, we are lacking in minigames). Like what I stated back a few sentences, Reisano Coins weren't even Reisano Coins. I have soon decided that Reisano Coins will be used in some minigames and gambling type of things other than simply "buying and selling item". I even thought of a lottery type of thing when these guys evolved. And that's not all, I had an idea of making these coins pick certain types of locks and even a vending machine. Okay, maybe not the vending machine, but you get the idea. We move right into the trading section! Not to be confused with training section, that's different. Now, trading in ZURPG is... Well, it's more of "giving away an item to someone" or "buying items using one specific item or selling an item for the same specific item". It's still some form of trading, but it seems really limited. After all, money costs time and time costs your life. I have actually thought of a "trading center" for, well, trading. Simply put, every major town or city will have at least one of these. NPCs can appear in certain trading centers, all of which can trade with you for something they want/need. The flipside is that some NPCs will trade you for something you want/need with something they don't really have a use for. There is more information on this, but I don't want to exactly hijack the thread with my own ideas that doesn't relate to what we are talking about. I know I have mentioned something about daily quests, but that will also be hold off for the same reason as above. In conclusion, as much as I like it for there to be one currency for simplicity purposes, there are still some flaws that can happen. Mainly the "extremely high price for a rare item" and "grinding". Both options have their upsides and downsides. For one currency, the downside is that you may have trouble trying to get enough rupees for a rare item and it doesn't make sense for every "country" to use the same currency. For the multiple currencies bit, the upside is that it makes much more sense than just having one currency for every "country". Not sure if I would really count "specific purposes" as an upside for the multiple currency part. ///endthread Edit: Just remembered something, you should probably think more positives and negatives on suggestions. Because if you only think about the plus side of things, then you may miss some negatives that may come up in the future. You have to think about things and what the consequences are. RE: Currency for everyone! - Darklink42 - 05-05-2014 To be fair Fireblast, you are making the assumption that there will, at some point, be items that are created and priced absurdly high, as well as that there will be players who wish to, and will somehow be able to, "grind" in this system. Obviously I wasn't a participant in the conversation that gave rise to this thread, but I feel like you guys are thinking WAY ahead in the future, where the ZURPG we all know will have changed drastically. The way things are now, insofar as I have observed, there's no reason for there to be absurdly priced items because the most powerful stuff tends to arrive in the form of artifacts, quest rewards, or the occasional personal item anyways. Besides which, no one has a character of a high enough level that purchasing said theoretical item makes sense. Heck, we don't even have level 30 rings yet. I have to agree with Darte on his point here too, that having different currencies as introduced by different DMs becomes a problem when those DMs aren't running anything for long periods of time, or drop off entirely. I don't disagree with your idea about having a sort of "rare currency" for acquiring special items, but in keeping with simplicity and in noting that we don't exactly have a dedicated team of item creators, I favor the one currency model if the question is mine to weigh in on. As an aside though, you do bring up a good point about trading. However, if we're keeping to the general spirit of the Zelda series, what you're describing isn't a rare coin system, it's the trading sidequests that often lead to things like the Biggoron sword, or the Lv. 3 items from the handheld games. Alternatively, you're also describing a collectibles system (Gold Skulltulas, fairy pieces, etc.), which as it stands right now, seems a bit on the impossible side unless all DMs agree to treat such a system in a totally equal manner. The best case scenario, in that event, is a two currency system, but...who can say for sure how much work that will take to create and balance? RE: Currency for everyone! - Forgotten Third Eye - 05-05-2014 (05-05-2014, 07:35 PM)Darklink42 Wrote: To be fair Fireblast, you are making the assumption ... I never did state that it was an assumption, I just simply said something that could happen as an example. There is a difference. Although, I didn't make it clear in my post. And I think I still have yet to show you the new hammer I created. Once you see it, you may be scratching your head one way or another. (05-05-2014, 07:35 PM)Darklink42 Wrote: that there will be players who wish to ... "grind" in this system I am not sure where you got that idea from. When I typed that paragraph up, I was mostly on the side of why someone doesn't want to grind. (05-05-2014, 07:35 PM)Darklink42 Wrote: ... I feel like you guys are thinking WAY ahead in the future ... Guess what? Some people actually do think way ahead in the future. And some for a good reason. I have been ROM hacking ever since I was in first grade, so it would be a good thing for me to think of the future of the system if anything. (05-05-2014, 07:35 PM)Darklink42 Wrote: ... we don't exactly have a dedicated team of item creators ...For every few normal, idea thinking people there are, there will be one with crazy and insane ideas. Guess who has crazy ideas? It's actually pretty easy to find that out. (05-05-2014, 07:35 PM)Darklink42 Wrote: [Third Paragraph]I am very confused with your statement. I see no mention of a "rare coin system" in my trading idea. Unless if you are talking about the "rare coin system" I had in the previous lines, there is absolutely no mention of such system in the "trading" part. As for "collectibles", I am still befuddled at what you are going for. Where did you get that from? Also, these kind of things are the very reason why I rarely post, it's generally easy to misunderstand what I say. I only mentioned a few things for the "trading" part, and yet, there is someone thinking that I mean the "Zelda style" trading because ZURPG is somewhat Zelda style. The "trading" system is completely different from the "trading" system from the Zelda games. Basically, the idea is that some NPCs can give you some pieces of iron if you give them something else like Octorok Meat. And generally, any player can trade with an NPC once and only once. Heck, there may be some times where the NPC may offer you two different items (ex: Heart Container and a Steel Sword) that you can choose for the price of giving them something else. Edit: Because I can and I feel like it. (05-05-2014, 07:35 PM)Darklink42 Wrote: To be fair Fireblast, you are making the assumption ...That should be "To be fair, Fireblast, ..." because you wouldn't say "To be fair Fireblast" as a starting statement for your claim if you are talking to someone else. It makes you look like a fool. The commas surrounding "Fireblast" are used for a good reason, the name part isn't really needed. That means that you can say "To be fair, you are making the assumption ..." since we don't really have to use someone's name in that place. It also makes more sense than "To be fair Fireblast, ...". RE: Currency for everyone! - Darte Fellshard - 05-05-2014 Fireblast, while all of your statements are valid ones, there are key assumptions that underlie them: that prices in the game are out of the creators' control, and that we need to realistically represent multiple cultures and their value of various forms of currency. The former is simply false: If you want ridiculously costly items, using a different currency just covers over the scale, making it appear smaller while still having the same relative value. If I had to pay just one Reisano Coin for something that's worth a thousand rupees, then you've just basically paid a thousand rupees, because that is the universal medium of exchange in nearly the entire Zelda universe. Swapping out the name and scale doesn't change the inherent value of the item. The latter is simply false: While I do most certainly agree that multiple currencies add flavour to the world-building aspect of the game, they also add unnecessary complication for both players and DMs to manage, especially if the currencies have non-trivial conversion rates! It would be simpler to make a mini-conversion at quest start and end, leaving it marked as rupees in the profile but calling it by its local equivalent in the session. You still get the world-building, role-playing value, but less nitpicking and profile-mongering. For example, I could trade in each rupee for a 'bundle of ore chunks'. Then you can give rewards easily (100 bundles of ore chunks for everybody!), and still make it easy to mark in your profile (alright, +100 rupees!). RE: Currency for everyone! - Forgotten Third Eye - 05-05-2014 (05-05-2014, 09:24 PM)Darte Fellshard Wrote: [Second Paragraph] Now now, I can see where you are getting at, but did I ever mention anything about prices being out of the creator's control? Where did you get that from? Did your brain just think of something otherwise? Also, I am not sure what you mean by "assumption" for that one, it's just that, well, it's just a possibility. Not to mention, that even though it is a scale, it somewhat makes it easier to keep track of a different currency. Or perhaps, I should make it so you can't convert Reisano Coins and Rupees between each other and go with my original idea. If I wanted the game to be harder for everyone? I will make it harder by simply removing the conversion rate of Reisano Coins. Most enemies in Reisanoqun are intended to drop fewer Reisano Coins than their actual level. (05-05-2014, 09:24 PM)Darte Fellshard Wrote: [Third Paragraph] So, what happens if Reisanoqun's main shop is opened 24/7? Would the conversion rate be too much? How would people know if they converted the right amount? What if there is simply no conversion rate for the currency? Not sure what you mean be non-trivial conversion rate, but if you mean something like "trade is 10x to get y and trade in y to get 2x", then I can understand. If you mean something else, you should have made it more clear in your post. Now another thing, what if it's a session where you jump from a bunch of different areas at once (probably not going to happen, but it could happen)? Would it be a headache to keep track of what is what? One thing I want to make clear, I never did make any assumptions. I just made an example of something that has a possibility that it could happen. And I never implied that we need to realistically represent the currency, just stated that it would be logically appropriate. RE: Currency for everyone! - Darte Fellshard - 05-06-2014 The point concerning prices being out of the creators' control is this: If the creators didn't want items to have literally impossibly high prices... then they won't set the prices that high. It would be absurd for a DM to expect players to attain that quantity of money, barring plot reasons, and that's an entirely different issue. By 'non-trivial conversion rate', I mean any rate that isn't 1-1. One rupee represents some single unit of another currency. It could be a small bundle containing multiple ore chunks, or a sliver of a Reisano Coin. Either way, you'd then be able to just in-game swap the term rupees for the term 'ore chunk bundle' or 'Reisano Sliver' without losing the world-building aspects, and it would still map directly to an identical quantity of rupees in your profile. RE: Currency for everyone! - WindStrike - 05-06-2014 Fireblast124 Wrote:Currency has to have a purpose, simply put, if it's only purpose is to be used as something to buy something else, then it is pretty much junk. Huh, I could swear this is how real world money works. I guess the world runs on a whole lotta junk. Currency's sole purpose is to be a common form of exchange. It places an absolute value on something. A White Sword is 150 Rupees. It's a fantastic early game weapon, but later, you generally want to upgrade to something better, which is generally more expensive. Now say we had to barter for the White Sword, and say our items didn't have any attached values to them. I decide I want to barter my cabinet for the vendor's White Sword. He says no. However, I try it for a different vendor, and it turns out he needs a cabinet, so he makes the trade. Another vendor may say he wants the cabinet, but he also wants a chair to go with it. So by having a bartering system, you have to know what the other person wants; it's not a bad idea, nothing wrong with it, but in order to make things simpler and more objective rather than subjective, we use Currency. Now that may seem like I sidetracked, but... let's replace those three items with three different Currencies. I want to trade my Rupee and Ore Chunk for a Gold Coin. They may give me 5 Gold Coins, they may give me none. The Currencies' values have become subjective, and thus, their one purpose - a common means of exchange - is now null and void. I suppose at this point, you could load 'em into a Slingshot and fire them at people, but in terms of existing as a means of value... you might as well trade chairs and cabinets, because they're a whole lot more useful. Granted, if we're to run with multiple currencies, depending on where you go, some places will outright accept or deny the currency, and that also negates the point of currencies, and that's where the main plus side of multiple currencies comes from - each one has its own unique values, which both diminishes and amplifies each other. Ultimately, it begs the question... is that a good thing? Only if each one is genuinely different and can be used on a relatively regular basis. I will go ahead and say this... ZURPG 2.0 (aka, Hyrulean Civil War) will use one currency, and that's Rupees. Do we want to use multiple for the current iteration of ZURPG? I'm not opposed to it, IF we actually do use them, and if each one's "conversion" (or lack thereof) works differently. Regarding the theoretical "what if someone ends up being a grindfest"... if the game ends up getting there, I'm either restarting the game or scrapping it entirely, because that means it's completely screwed at that point. There's a good number of reasons why I ask people to pass all items through me, especially shop items - I primarily check to see if the prices need to be raised, but if I see something that's ridiculously high, I'll also recommend it drops down, unless it's there to exist as a troll item - like sticking D&D's Magic Missile (standard Wisdom based attack that can attack the darkness) in a shop for 10,000 Rupees. It would just be a joke. Now, putting up a Level 50 required sword that rolls Courage +50 and has a ridiculously high price - I don't care what the price says, I'm immediately throwing a nerfbat at it, and then recommending lowering the price. So long as it doesn't pass below the minimum price, shopowner can set it as high as he wants. RE: Currency for everyone! - Forgotten Third Eye - 05-07-2014 Find me 15 disadvantages for have one currency. Likewise, find me 20 for multi. And you know what? Fine, just go with one currency. It's not like I care about this discussion anymore. These type of things are the very reason why I don't post much at all. You people clearly have different mindsets than I do. |